Hejmo » Learning Esperanto » Questions (Demandoj) » Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto.
| Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11783] |
Mon, 21 December 2009 11:47  |
 Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Are you fed up with hearing the same old platitudes mouthed by Esperantists? Few of which seem to be effective in persuading the general public of Esperanto's worth.
It seems to me pushing Esperanto as the new logical lingua franca or rabbiting on about the joys of making international contacts don't hack it.
It also seems to me that any effective promotion of Esperanto must sidestep the obvious counter argument that nobody speaks it.
Never mind the often quoted figures for the number of speakers, the reality, which your personal experience confirms, is that the number of fluent competent speakers is really quite small.
This leads me on to raise the question that rarely seems to be addressed - why are there so few Esperantists? Without a satisfactory answer to that question, any propaganda for Esperanto isn't going to make much progress.
Why is it that some crackpot religion can create a million adherents and raise funds on a massive scale, while Esperanto remains in the doldrums with its numbers and financial resources?
Suppose you had £50,000 to leave in your will for the promotion of Esperanto, how would you specify that the money be spent?
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11793 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 11:19  |
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kalvupo
Messages: 654
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK |
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Use it to promote Novial 
If I was in charge of 50k of Esperanto money, I'd probably do one of two things. Firstly (and most probably) fund events and travel/accomodation costs for younger Esperantists, to keep the 'ujo going. Alternatively, blow it on a crazy Espervangelising campaign directed towards la fina venko.
I'll confess as well that I wouldn't want Radio to look over the balance sheets at the end of it, because I may well have skimmed a little off the top!
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11794 is a reply to message #11793 ] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 13:35 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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What Espervangelising would produced biggest bang for ones buck? That is the question. What psychological angle does one need to produce effective promotion?
Perhaps one should set up a prize fund with a financial reward for the best promotional idea.
Incidentally, on the subject of how many Esp-istoj there are currently, it's entertaining to use the Skype search facility entering no name but specifying a country and language=Esperanto to see how many names pop up.
This morning I found 3 esperantists (apparently) in Canterbury (15 miles from me). I'm going to try some other Kent towns to see what that throws up.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11795 is a reply to message #11794 ] |
Wed, 23 December 2009 19:36 |
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kalvupo
Messages: 654
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK |
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| Ramsgatano wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 13:35 |
What Espervangelising would produced biggest bang for ones buck? That is the question. What psychological angle does one need to produce effective promotion?
Perhaps one should set up a prize fund with a financial reward for the best promotional idea.
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I'm skeptical about the idea of trying to coerce people into doing something they don't particularly want to, or from which they won't get sufficient benefits (this would change if Eo was more prominent, e.g. in the EU), so rather than doing this, I would encourage that the existence of the language and the community be better advertised and trumpeted. In other words, we should show that the doors are open and that it's warm inside, but we shouldn't try to bundle people in.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11801 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Sat, 26 December 2009 11:27 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Kalvupo diris ke li ne ŝatas devigan elementon en la kreado de novaj Esp-istoj.
Do supuzoble li trovus malaprobinda la enkondukon (kiel normalan instruobjekton) de Esperanto en la lernejon, kaj ankaŭ la trudon de Esperanto al povraj senhelpaj infanoj per Esp-istaj gepatroj
En ambaŭ kazoj, estas klare ke estas devigo.
Fakte mi mem estas kontraŭ denaskaj Esp-istoj, sed ne pro la sama kialo. Laŭ mi la ideala aĝo je kiu oni eklernu Esperanton estas ĉ. 18-jara. Ĉar je tiu aĝo la cerba rapideco kaj sento de logiko estas la plej alta.
Malgraŭ la fakte ke oni ofte pretendas ke Esperanto estas tute plena homa lingvo samkiel la naciaj lingvoj, estas grava malsamo.
Lernante nacian lingvon, oni transiras de komencanto al flua parolanto per iu procezo de imitado al denaskaj parolantoj.
Tio absolute ne okazas samgrade rilate Esperanton. Atinginte certan lingvo-scipovon oni progresas plu per la inventemo - pli eksplicite per la lerto eluzi la potencialon de la lingvo.
Cetere, la sento de kio devus esti esprimebla, estas jam fortigita de la jam bone establita rego de la nacia lingvo (kiu ne estas firme evoluinta ankoraŭ je la infanaĝo).
Mi antaŭdivenus ke, se oni farus esploron inter la plej bonaj regantoj de nia lingvo, oni trovus ke multaj el tiuj fakte eklernis E. kiam ili havis studentjaraĝon.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11807 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 13:41 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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On page 176 of his recent biography 'My Time in Service', Britain's oldest surviving butler recalls a prophetic conversation with his master from the 1930's.
"I say Smithers I just had the most spiffin' idea.
Yes my Lord
You are always going on about this lingua franca idea of your Hispanglist mates.
They are Esperantists, my Lord.
Whatever, the point is, it set the old brain-box workin' and I think I've got it. Why don't we make the world learn a language with 20 vowel sounds and some consonants not generally known, and a verb system of a subtlety that foxes most Continentals, and a spelling system riddled with historical debris, and highly idiomatic combinations of verbs with prepositions with multiple meanings instead of single words, and ....
Sorry my Lord, which language is that?
Really, Smithers do try to keep up. Why English of course. Anway, here comes the clever bit. We can makes oodles of cash teaching the blighters to speak it, which you will never do with your Hispanglo.
Sorry my Lord, I don't quite see how ..
Smithers, you can be an absolute dolt sometimes. Look at that globe of mine. How much of the world is coloured pink. That's the British Empire. So we are not going to stand any truck from a handful of foreigners, are we? Anyway they will probably be grateful, cos you know what awful gibberish some of those foreign lingo's are, and another thing look at my clock ...
I don't quite see..
Well it tells the right time, doesn't it. And what time is it in Moscow or Rio de Janeiro? It's plus this, or minus that. Those benighted foreign Johnnies can't even get the time right. We can't put them in charge of sorting out the language problem, can we?"
And his Lorship was right, as he so often was, and 70 years later English came to occupy an unshakeable position as the world's language. And my 'Hispanglist' friends were so wrong in thinking that simplicity would make a good argument.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11813 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Sat, 02 January 2010 12:38 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Picking up on a link I saw in EsperBrit to an article on the BBC website ["Why does anyone learn Esperanto?"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7505820.stm], I added my penny's worth (see below). Why not have your say as well to balance the negativity in the comments section?
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"Stephen Thompson is quite right to identify Esperanto's main enemies as ignorance and prejudice. And one can see both of these at work in the comments above. As for Esperantists themselves, they are probably quite wrong to continually trot out the same old tired arguements about the value of Esperanto as a rational lingua franca, and the joy of making international contacts.
The choice of Latin, then French and now English as international languages shows how little such a choice has anything to do with simplicity to learn, or neutrality or structural linguistic features. And any language widely spoken could be used for making international contacts.
The value of Esperanto in today's world is surely educational. It allows pupils of all abilities to experience what it is like to talk in another language than their own, and because of its explict marking of grammatical function teaches concepts such as the parts of speech, the difference between subject and object the notion of transitivity in a verb and so on. It is also true, as many experiments have shown, that it serves very well to facilitate the learning of European national languages.
It cannot be denied, that if it were taught at secondary level throughout Europe, then very soon a whole generation would have a facility of communication when travelling abroad, and if it were adopted as an official working language in Europe's institutions these could save millions in translation and allow many more direct personal contacts. But history demonstrates that these arguments are ineffective."
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11991 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 29 January 2010 10:46 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Just to give quick indication of what the Esperantists are up against in trying to promote Esperanto as a lingua franca, I report what a woman in Paris recently told me during a conversation on Skype.
In her opinion, she thought two out of three French people need English for their job.
She can't be right, can she? But, it just goes to show how firmly the concept of English as the international language is entrenched.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the whole tactic of trying to sell E. as the solution to the language problem is doomed. We must find another basis for promoting Esperanto, and one that can't be attacked on the basis of the paucity of the Esperanto-speaking population.
A quick fumble through Geoffrey Sutton's 700 page Encyclopedia of the Original Literature of Esperanto shows how much more productive have the efforts and poets and authors been than the actions of the propagandists, to secure the future of the language.
Of course, if you agree with my thesis that the 'movadistoj' have been barking up the wrong tree for more than 100 years, then this is not surprising.
But what would a propaganda leaflet aimed at promoting the hobbyist/leisure/educational value of Esperanto look like?
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11994 is a reply to message #11991 ] |
Sat, 30 January 2010 15:13 |
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| Ramsgatano wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 10:46 |
In her opinion, she thought two out of three French people need English for their job.
She can't be right, can she?
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It does seem a high proportion, doesn't it?
I know when I lived and taught over there entire firms were undergoing language training at all levels of staff. Of course, there were the obvious cases like Airbus, where I taught people who worked in the factories in what we would consider to be relatively unskilled work. (Incidentally, the worst performer, in spite of his arrogant demeanour to the contrary, was a company high-up. I was glad that he considered himself to be too important to attend more than a couple of classes, because his presence ruined the atmosphere in the class because the others were too nervous. The best performers, to my mind, were the mechanics, who tried hardest, because they were convinced that they wouldn't be able to do it and would lose their jobs.)
There was another factory where I taught that did a lot of business with the Brazilian. Rather than learn Portuguese, they elected to have every member of staff (or so it seemed) trained to converse in English.
So whether the figure is overly high, as I suspect it is, it's certainly the case in my experience that English has been a requirement in quite a few areas where it wouldn't be expected.
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The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the whole tactic of trying to sell E. as the solution to the language problem is doomed.
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When you see the Iranian poor holding up placards and blogging in English, and foreign TV showing this footage and reporting "Vous voyez l'affiche This is all lies que les jeunes Iraniens tiennent ..." or Haitian destitute displaying home-made "We are starving" signs, it becomes pretty clear that English is the world's tool for mutual comprehension in 2010.
The people trying to get the message out use it, and foerign-language news services use the English wording in the middle of their reports, suggesting to me that they don't anticipate that their viewers require a translation.
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A quick fumble through Geoffrey Sutton's 700 page Encyclopedia of the Original Literature of Esperanto shows how much more productive have the efforts and poets and authors been than the actions of the propagandists, to secure the future of the language.
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I'm not a poetry fan, but I can't imagine that an honest person couldn't genuinely be impressed by the rhyming and pacing in Baghy's Estas Mi Esperantisto. That Baghy backs up your point only makes it more appropriate for me to link to it here 
When I redesigned EAB's publicity CD I thought, as you appear to, that the idea is to show how beautifully people use the language. In my case, I chose seven different styles of song, so that people could at least here that the languages doesn't sound unnatural.
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Of course, if you agree with my thesis that the 'movadistoj' have been barking up the wrong tree for more than 100 years, then this is not surprising.
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Actually, I agree with the movadistoj up until what we would probably call modern times. It strikes me that they were on to something once upon a time, as the creations of delegations for an international language and so forth would suggest.
It's only with seeing the proliferation with English since the Second World War that I would think that they're overly optimistic in trying to sell the language as the solution to the "lingva problemo", because English, whether fair or not, seems to already be filling that gap. (Watch these two paragraphs be taken out of context and used to label me a proponent of an English-only New World Order".)
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But what would a propaganda leaflet aimed at promoting the hobbyist/leisure/educational value of Esperanto look like
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Good question. That's something that I'm actually tasked with helping draw up, so I'd be grateful for any hints that people might like to suggest
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #11995 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Sun, 31 January 2010 12:58 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Well Tim, one could debate how long it should have taken the Esperantists to realise that the arguments for Esperanto as the world's lingua franca weren't going to take the world by storm.
I concede that it would have been unreasonable for the early adopters to change tack whilst Zamenhof was still alive and that without that initial ideology Esperanto might never have got started.
However, that's a discussion for another day.
Much more interesting now is the question of what modern propaganda should look like, and seeing as how you have been commissioned to produce something and asked for help, I'd like to make a few practical suggestions.
I need a few days to work out some detail. But for the moment I think that one can outline a few principles.
The starting point must be to handle head on the ignorance and prejudice of the general public (and not a few academics who should know better). And certainly in these times when there is such an aversion to spin, one must be frank about the subject.
Also we need to consider the psychological/emotional aspect and find an appropriate hook. Get this point right and you could see an an explosion of interest. If you think I exaggerate, consider the way that Blogging on the web developed from nothing, the dramatic success of sites like Facebook, or the way that Sudoku spread as a craze across the planet.
Maybe, one approach could be to produce a leaflet under the heading '100 things you should know about Esperanto', with each point in the list dealing with some well-worn counter argument.
I'll try to get into comprehensive detail later. But for the moment just an illustration.
Esperanto is seen as artificial and not a real language. So why not make this a selling point rather than something to be denied and argued against.
For example:-
Esperanto is the only artificial language in the history of mankind that has developed a significant body of speakers and been spoken for over a 100 years. Isn't that interesting?
Because it is was invented, it is not encumbered with irregularities and tortuous grammar. Did you know that it takes only 60 seconds to learn to form the basic tenses of every verb. In French you might have got that far after 2 years' of study.
Because it was launched as a second language to be easily learnt in adulthood, a strong tradition has emerged to preserve this feature and prevent it from developing the historical debris that clutters national languages and makes them so difficult.
Normally when learning a foreign language, if you don't say something in the way that native speakers do, you can sound ridiculous. In Esperanto, there may be several ways of saying the same thing and provided what you say makes sense, you are speaking good Esperanto and are understood.
This gives a flavour of what I am on about. I have taken Esperanto's artificiality and lack of native speakers - normally considered a weak point - and shown how it makes the language powerful.
But at the same time, I have subtly suggested that the language has become much more than a code and has not and will not break up into dialects. Also I have completely side-stepped the issue of E. replacing English as a lingua franca.
More later.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12002 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Tue, 02 February 2010 15:04 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Another general principle that has occurred to me is that the approach to propaganda should be 'evidence-based'.
In other words one should test by experiment which tactics result in a favourable change in attitudes, - eliminating those that don't and keeping the ones that work.
Tim, if you like my idea of 'Things you should know about Esperanto', then here is another example.
'Thousands of books have been published in and about Esperanto. The figure is significantly disproportionate to the number of speakers. However, this doesn't mean that if you go to an Esperanto congress you will be surrounded by academics, literati and poets. Many ordinary people have learnt Esperanto too.'
This is disguised appeal to intellectual snobbery. By denying that Esperanto is the preserve of the intelligentsia, I imply that a lot of serious people have taken Esperanto seriously.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12003 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Tue, 02 February 2010 15:37 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Mi ĵus legis (en verko de Waringhien) pri iu brava sinjoro de la fruaj tagoj kiu slogane beligis sian jakon kaj ŝuojn per almeto de la vorto 'Esperanto' kaj ĉarme pasigis sian tempon vizitante la urinejojn de Parizo postlasante la krete skribitan mesaĝon 'Apprenez l'Esperanto'.
Kia heroo! Ni etas nanoj kompare al tiu giganto.
Kial ni ne lasas flugfoliojn reklamante Esperanto sub la viŝiloj de ĉiuj aŭtoj en la najbara strato?
Kial ni ne defie respondas al tiuj trudaj telfon-alvokoj al niaj hejmoj fare de vendistoj per la insista demando 'Kiam vi eklernos Esperanton'?
Kial ni eĉ ne kuraĝas plu porti la verdan steleton sur niaj brustoj?
Kial ne estas Esperanto-Spamo sur la Inter-reto?
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12005 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Wed, 03 February 2010 23:28 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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Mi pensas ke esperanto-spamo ekzistas, ĉar mi iam ajn ricevis strangajn hazardajn mesaĝojn en esperanto. Ankaŭ ĉe lernu.net fojfoje homoj uzas ĝin por varbi siajn firmaojn, sed mi supozas ke tio ne taŭgas al la kunteksto.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12015 is a reply to message #12002 ] |
Mon, 08 February 2010 20:49 |
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| Ramsgatano wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 15:04 |
Another general principle that has occurred to me is that the approach to propaganda should be 'evidence-based'.
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I'd insist on it
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'Thousands of books have been published in and about Esperanto. The figure is significantly disproportionate to the number of speakers.
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Heh! On first glance, I was thinking that that was apolegetic and that the next bit would read "but many people actually use Esperanto verbally, rather than as a mere passive hobby", or something similarly written to excuse the figure! 
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However, this doesn't mean that if you go to an Esperanto congress you will be surrounded by academics, literati and poets. Many ordinary people have learnt Esperanto too.'
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Oh, I genuinely believe that the truth lies in presenting it exactly as it is in my experience: For what I would call "normal, regular people", as well as those who pursue it for intellectual reasons.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute 
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12019 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 12:47 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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My guess is Tim that very little Esperanto propaganda or 'informado' has been evidence based (in the sense of evidence-based medicine or evidence-based politics).
I suspect that very rarely have there been attempts to measure the effect of the propaganda and refine it accordingly.
Rather it has been the same old story of the promulgation of a particular mind set or favoured views with regard to the language.
If the Esperantists had been testing the effects of their 'broŝuroj', I think they would have found that the lingua franca arguments and the 'isn't it jolly to talk to foreigners from all over the world' approach has only been appealing to a very limited subset of the population.
Browsing the net I came across a very glossy inform-broŝuro called 'Malkovru Esperanton - Discover Esperanto' (I'll try to post the link later) which although impressive in its production values, left one with the feeling that this was yet again a failure of imagination.
I also stumbled on a very long thread in a forum in which one contributor, I felt, had hit the nail on the head with regard to why people take up en masse the learning of a particular language.
He said people learn a foreign language because either it has prestige value or it is of practical use.
Accept that, and the thrust of any effective propaganda for Esperanto has got be to change attitudes in those areas.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12037 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 11:42 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Post sufiĉa longa pripensado de la temo, mi sentas ke mi havas nenion novan por aldoni.
Do resume:-
Oni devas forlasi la tradician argumentojn.
Oni devas preni ĉiun ofte-diritan malfavoran opinion, kaj kvazaŭ akceptante tiun vidpunkton, transformi ĝin en por-Esperantan karakterizilon.
Oni devas testi ĉiun argumenton por eltrovi kiu efikas kaj kiu ne.
Oni devas ellabori aliron kiu modifas en la kapo de la alparolatoj la nocion ke Esperanto estas sen prestiĝo kaj sen praktika valoro.
Bonŝancon al ĉiuj!
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12520 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 14:23 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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Firstly, could one problem be that some of the people who promote esperanto look at it from a very long-term viewpoint, whereas the public might be inclined to take a more short-term viewpoint and say: well, who speaks esperanto? Nobody.
Secondly, maybe the arguments should be adapted to the situation, considering that people learn esperanto for several reasons: political, religious, academic, social, so that needs to be taken into account.
I suppose that in my opinion, esperanto will never be a world language in the sense that a majority of people will speak it. But I don't think that is necessarily bad. I mean, if there were a hundred esperanto speakers in every town or city in the world, you could go anywhere with esperanto and have some sort of guide.
Maybe there isn't point trying to target everyone. I mean, firstly maybe you have to get the 'hard core' of enthusiasts, the stereotypical people involved and then try to appeal to a wider public.
Maybe I'm pessimistic, I don't know.
What if you could use practical examples. For example, if you said: what if every worker on the underground could speak esperanto, then travel would be made much smoother. (Just an example, not specifically that example).
Also, has anyone investigated into using esperanto to tackle recism, for example in schools? I mean I've heard people say things like: esperanto is a language to promote business or europeans and stuff, but in a way, it was a direct antidote to racism in the start.
Just some ideas for new arguments. But I agree about intellectual honesty.
Maybe one thing to do could for example to be to offer a free course in esperanto in a school or a business and see what they do? I mean, I don't think there's much chance at the moment of any top down approach, well not here. But, I think it's better to get one person to join esperantujo than to get a hundred to feel disillusioned
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12534 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Thu, 22 April 2010 11:29 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Maybe one thing to do could for example to be to offer a free course in esperanto
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The provision of means has its place, Jake, in recruitment.
If, for example, every public library in the country were donated a copy of the new Wells Dictionary (with it's concise grammar introduction), it is quite likely that a few new Esperantists would emerge.
You can imagine people who are naturally interested in languages browsing in the language learning section, seeing the book, picking it up out of curiosity, and then becoming hooked.
Almost certainly too, the appearance of free courses on the Internet has had some results.
But to really boost the numbers of speakers, a method needs to be found to change attitudes.
With regard to smoking, drink-driving, unprotected sex and, since you mention it, race relations, the general attitudes in society have fundamentally changed in a relatively short period. So it is not impossible to imagine with the right propaganda that a more positive stance in relation to Esperanto could be induced.
My fundamental point is that the old arguments have proved ineffective and a fresh approach is required.
On the narrow point of whether Esperanto can have a beneficial effect in the field of racial harmony, one observation is inescapable.
Esperanto is very short on terms of abuse such as chink, nip, frog, dago, coon etc. Even when English resorts to a compound form such as sheep-shagger (for the Welsh) it is difficult to create a kunmetaĵo in E with equal force.
Amazingly, too, neither Wells or Benson list translations for 'inflammatory'.
We can't have Esperanto like Newspeak (the language in Orwell's 1984), in which certain thoughts become inexpressible. We need a language of prejudice as well. (Personally, I crave, for derogatory terms for the very fat.)
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12551 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 10:43 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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On putting in a book order to EAB, I received with the titles ordered an EAB publicity pack which included a 4 page free Esperanto lesson.
Among the translation exercises are such gems as
'The dog isn't drinking' 'A cat is sitting in the shop' 'The child doesn't write' 'Coffee is in the cup'.
Talk about La plume de ma tante. This is appalling. Surely it shouldn't have been beyond the combined academic expertise in the Esperanto Movement to produce something fresh, modern-looking and inviting.
Also, no use is made of the fact that there are so many international words in Esperanto.
So instead of having in the vocabulary sections words like pordo herbo pomo planko lakto taso - which a monolingual English-speaker might not be able to guess, wouldn't it have been much better to have words like Prezidento, telefoni, aŭtomobilo, parki, bombo, kompakta disko in a first lesson?
'Du bomboj eksplodis en centra Bagdado' or 'La Usona prezidento Barack Obama telefonis al la brita ĉefministro Gordon Brown pri la krizo' are both more immediately intelligible than 'La rozoj estas apud la fenestro' or 'La bestoj kuras sur la herbo' and more interesting.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12556 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 13:36 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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I agree with everything you've said.
I mean, most people can't be persuaded by idealism and for those that can, they need resources to be available with clear explanations and without all the bullshit which surround esperanto on the internet.
You'd think that considering the Esperanto movement and community have some of the great academics of the world and are possibly the most multilingual community, that we would be able to manipulate words to our own advantage and create persuasive arguments.
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So instead of having in the vocabulary sections words like pordo herbo pomo planko lakto taso - which a monolingual English-speaker might not be able to guess, wouldn't it have been much better to have words like Prezidento, telefoni, aŭtomobilo, parki, bombo, kompakta disko in a first lesson?
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That's a pretty clever idea, make a course where you can start saying reasonably complex things straight away to boost peoples' self confidence.
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Esperanto is very short on terms of abuse such as chink, nip, frog, dago, coon etc. Even when English resorts to a compound form such as sheep-shagger (for the Welsh) it is difficult to create a kunmetaĵo in E with equal force.
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Haha, I remember thw worst I have seen is something like nigraĉulo, which doesn't have the same ring to it as the English ...
Since I will have a few months free from July, I might spend my time trying to get some people in Ashford to learn Esperanto.
If I sent a letter to a local business or school and offered to teach them esperanto for free, do you think that would do anything?
Also, do you think it is necessary to create different arguments for different target audiences?
Would it work to for example target a certain group, whether it be a religious group or whatever and present a few arguments for esperanto and then provide information about hot that group has been involved in the esperanto movement, so that they don't think they are alone?
SO, for example, you could possibly target a language student at the university of Durham by making Esperanto look chic and young and emphasise the fact that it has a proportionally strong literary tradition, given the small number of people.
Maybe that wouldn't work, but that's not the point of what I'm saying.
It could also simply be a percentage game. Expose x number of people to esperanto, y percentage will definitely begin to or intend to learn it, if they have the resources.
In my opinon, it could be a matter of firstly getting everyone who you would 'expect' to learn it to learn it, then
target different groups until it become mainstream and more people learn it. I don't know.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12558 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 14:30 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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Yeah that's a good idea
I think it could work. In a school in a town called Mazeikiai in Lithuania, there is a woman who runs an esperanto club and I'm in contact with three girls from that school, so it definitely has the potential to work.
http://esperanto.toulouse.free.fr/Dokumentoj/Grazina_Opulski ene.htm
Also, for example in my school, when they offered Japanese a few people took it up.
So why not Esperanto?
Make it so it's as little effort as possible to start. Just say, come here to learn esperanto. it could work. it would be interesting!
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12560 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 14:54 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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While educating children is well and good, most idealists are adults, I find. Wink & Smile
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especially in my old school, lots of kids tended to be reagemaj bastardoj egoistaj
Unfortunately I probably won't be able to go to Llandudno, because of | Quote: |
damenendaj ekzamenoj
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but yeah it's a good idea!
Just teaching a beginners' class would be excellent, as it would give people the tools to go further by themselves
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12562 is a reply to message #12551 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 15:44 |
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| Ramsgatano wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 10:43 |
Talk about La plume de ma tante. This is appalling. Surely it shouldn't have been beyond the combined academic expertise in the Esperanto Movement to produce something fresh, modern-looking and inviting.
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I agree that those particular phrases are pretty uninspiring.
One of my former students reminded me of something I'd taught her: "Malbona instruisto instruas malbone."
In that one sentence the students had incorporated lots of things that we'd covered recently beforehand: a-words, suffixes such as -ist, verb endings, opposites. Then the whole lot had been put together in a pretty simple sentence which made them laugh, because they twigged that I was making myself the figure of fun. Sure enough, one of them interrupted: "Ne, Tim estas bonega instruisto. Li intruas bonege."
And that was the goal; they'd taken a memorable phrase and immediately learned that they can make their own statements from it. How many languages could you do that in during the first class? Much more inspiring than "birdo manĝas insektojn", which was the first phrase I saw in my own postal course.
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'Du bomboj eksplodis en centra Bagdado' or 'La Usona prezidento
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* prezidanto. I always remember that one because you can speak of prezidintoj and prezidontoj. Still, your point holds, and is reinforced by the fact that you can put in the next sentence "eks-prezidanto Bush" or "prezidinto Bush", and so on.
| Noktema Strigulino wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 13:24 |
If I had a lot of money to push into Esperanto.... hmmm.... I honestly don't know. Perhaps I would do some kind of grant for people wishing to use Esperanto in films or music, putting them in touch with Esperantists who can help them translate and so on.
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Billionaire George Soros is actually a denaska, but has given up on the promotion of the language. Imagine what would be possible if he hadn't!
| Ramsgatano wrote on Thu, 22 April 2010 11:29 |
Esperanto is very short on terms of abuse such as chink, nip, frog, dago, coon etc. Even when English resorts to a compound form such as sheep-shagger (for the Welsh) it is difficult to create a kunmetaĵo in E with equal force.
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That's one of the things I mention when people ask me whether I'm fluent in Esperanto. I like to think that I'm functiona;;y fluent, but there's just no way of getting genuine anger out without it seeming very artificial. Same for insulting people, though it's quite clear that there are so many annoying types out there that someone really should have come up with something now.[/quote]
| Noktema Strigulino wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 13:48 |
It would be nice to get Esperanto taught in more night schools, even if it's just as a curio. Springboard for grownups. Perhaps
we should approach some colleges? Volunteer teachers from local Esperantists?
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Subject to their ability being good enough, or it could be counterproductive.
There was a lady at Esperanto HQ within the last few months. She'd been around for years, and was there during my first visit in 2003.
Anyway, she was beyond dreadful. The pronunciation was entirely anglicised, there were countless errors in the Esperanto, it was appalling. I remember tutting in Clare's direction when she, after having dominated the conversation at the breakfast table, turned to someone else and said "Bonvoh-loo don-oo al mee la butter-on."
As she was leaving, she turned to someone and said that she'd enjoyed the weekend, and that she was going to "teach Esperanto again." Cue a spit-take, nobody wanting to be the one to say anything, until one guy mumbled: "I'm sorry: Did she say she wanted to teach Esperanto?"
I think my point is that it's easy to find people who think they're far more proficient than they are, especially in Esperantujo, where self-awareness seems under-represented.
| Jake wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 14:30 |
So why not Esperanto?
Make it so it's as little effort as possible to start. Just say, come here to learn esperanto. it could work. it would be interesting!
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I'd quite like to do that at university at some point. It's such a multilingual environment that I bet you could drum up some interest.
| Noktema Strigulino wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 14:57 |
I'd better shut up before Tim accuses me of being an Espervangelist again. :D
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Heh. Note how you've absorbed the terminology, though: the subconscious dehumanising process now begins 
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Seriously though, if people think it's a goer I don't mind bringing it up at the AGM as an AOB or a side-issue if Springboard gets mentioned, as long as they don't mind me doing it in English.
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You can use any of the native British languages at the AGM. It's normally proposed at the start of the meeting that the management team will respond in English unless requested to use Esperanto. That brought about a memorable objection last year, when a certain somebody argued that English must be acceptable (even though that's what had been said!) since otherwise members wouldn't be able to sufficiently well put across such things as "vicious and defamatory campaign"
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I'm not sure my Esperanto is up to getting the concept across appropriately. Teaching people Esperanto grammar I can do, I'm not sure I can get difficult concepts like this across though 
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Who knows? It might all come to you once you put yourself in a speaking environment first
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12563 is a reply to message #12562 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 16:17 |
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Noktema Strigulino
Messages: 296
Registered: September 2009
Location: Bazildono |
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You have just contradicted yourself a bit - one minute saying teachers should be relatively fluent, now saying I'll be fine after I've done a bit more talking  I confess, however, that I do surprise myself at the Southenda Klubo with how easy "conversational" Esperanto comes to me, although I do wonder how many hilarious mistakes I'm making that they are too polite to tell me about.
Tim-teasing aside, though, he makes a very good point; if we do get Esperanto night classes, these people are to some extent ambassadors for the language. There would need to be relatively stringent control, therefore, in order to ensure that anyone we do get interested in the language isn't put off. My thoughts would be that you could have, like Springboard, reasonably non-fluent teachers for a "taster" Esperanto course, but they would have to be vetted in some way. Perhaps there could be a weekend where volunteers could come to Barlaston to go through some kind of approval process? Basic Esperanto knowledge, pronunciation, public speaking skills?
I'm not sure whether it would be better to approach colleges and then find tutors for the ones that are interested, or train up tutors and then approach colleges in their areas. How was Springboard done? I admit I know of Springboard and what it's for, but I confess I don't know much about the logistics of it.
My one interesting tale about learning language for work... my ex used to work in Bayern, and as he worked for a computer company, all the German people there were having English lessons (very definitely the language of computing) from an American chap. Anyway, to cut a long story short, my ex used to skip the lessons as he, being English, spoke perfectly acceptable English. And the teacher spotted him one day and asked one of the Germans why this other man didn't do the English lessons. Anyone who says Germans don't have a sense of humour doesn't know any, because they said "Oh, err... we're not sure. Why don't you ask him?"
So the teacher goes off to talk to my (English born and bred) ex, the Germans giggling in the background as he asks "So, you speak English well - where did you learn? Oh, in England. Ah yes, you've picked up the accent a bit! Did you live there long? Er... yeah. Quite long."
He also told me that in the film Airplane, in the bit where the old lady is "translating" the Jive, in the German language version of the film they're speaking Bavarian German instead.
The Strig
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It is better to light a candle, than curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt.
Estas pli bone ekbruligi kandelon, ol malbeni la tenebron.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12564 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 17:00 |
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Noktema Strigulino
Messages: 296
Registered: September 2009
Location: Bazildono |
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Perhaps there's a case to be made for updating and rewriting the postal course a bit, using some of the ideas mentioned here for more English-speaker-friendly vocab. Or at least using it as a base for working on materials for an "Esperanto Taster" course aimed at colleges/universities/adult education as a "hobby" course. I think if you made the first lesson interesting, funny, immediately useful, people would keep coming.
I'm beginning to think that people go on about Raŭmists and the Fina Venko and don't realise that the rest of the world has changed around us. Esperanto as a movement seems to be stuck in the 1900's. The main issue about publicising Esperanto is what is called the Unique Selling Point. If we go up to someone and say "Learn Esperanto", the first thing they're going to say is "Why?" If we say either of the Esperantist extremes, the average punter will just laugh and write you off as another random nutter with a dream. But if you can publicise an Esperanto Taster course in a way that is palatable to the average man on the street (it's a way to improve your understanding of languages that's easy to start, it means you can correspond with people all over the world) then they would consider it. Especially if it's cheap. Rob nailed it in a BBC article - "For example, if you go to France and try to speak to someone in French, you're aware they know what they're talking about and you don't. With Esperanto you're on an equal footing."
The original question as to why a lot of "crackpot religions" get money and adherents is just that religions claim to have the answers. A lot of people, I think, bundle Esperanto in with things like Wiccans, Trekkies, Monster Raving Loonies, "happy clappy" Christian groups and the people who put "Jedi" down on forms as their religion. It's "yeah, you can believe what you want, just don't bother me with your funny ideas". Maybe they're right. However, there are real, practical benefits to learning Esperanto, and that's what the movado needs to concentrate on if it ever wants to be taken seriously by the man on the street. We all know that people have pre-conceived ideas about Esperanto and what it's about, and that's the main problem. People publicise Esperanto without actually thinking about who they want to reach and why.
That said, there is a cachet to being an Esperantist. It ALWAYS comes up in job interviews. They read it off my CV and say, "do you really speak Esperanto? That's that thing off Red Dwarf isn't it? Didn't that die out years ago?". My usual response is to say "no it didn't" and rattle off Baa baa Ŝafo as an example. It makes you different, and therefore interesting. That might be something you can push, too.
So, yes, back on topic. How should Esperanto be presented to 21st century Britain? Esperanto in the UK needs a bit of a makeover. It needs to be less about "peace and love" and more about "useful". It needs to get out in public and be ready to answer the "why should I". Zamenhof knew that people needed a neutral second language, but in this day and age, as has been said previously, people will go "why bother learning another language, everyone speaks English." We're in a modern, technological, consumerist society and... well, basically, Esperanto is a product that we want to market. You have to think of it that way. Perhaps in 1888 Zamenhof said "this is a nice idea" and everyone went "golly gosh, yes", but in 2010 people go "this is a nice idea" and everyone goes "what's the catch, and what's in it for me". Sign of the times.
So.... learn Esperanto! Why?
It makes other languages easier.
There are more Esperantists than you think there are.
You can get involved in a unique world culture.
People will go "ooh, you speak Esperanto!"
Blimey, I have written a lot, haven't I? In my defence, I do type at approximately 80 wpm so I do have a tendency to appear verbose when I have a bit to say, becauase I don't have any particular reason to be succinct.
The Strig
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It is better to light a candle, than curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt.
Estas pli bone ekbruligi kandelon, ol malbeni la tenebron.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12567 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Fri, 23 April 2010 23:39 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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You are so lucky to be abe to do 80 wpm Strig, I can barely type a line without having to go back and correct.
Tim, Prezidento is listed in PV2005 in the sense of Respublik-estro, though you would say Prezidanto of the Loka Kongresa Komitato. Bush is therefore an eks-prezidento, more than a prezidinto.
Strig, 'it's better to .. ' should be 'Estas pli bone ..' to conform with current usage.
Anyway returning to the topic, I think the problem of running a beginners' course if one isn't a 'spertul(in)o' can be very simply addressed.
It should be quite easy to recruit enough talent to collaboratively work out suitable interesting course material which could be posted on the net and thereby be available as a downloadable resource for anybody who wanted to try their hand at running a beginner's class for intelligent adults.
Obvious principles would be:-
1. to avoid all stilted examples.
2. use vocab that can be easily guessed from context.
3. teach grammar by giving sentences which allow students to deduce the functions of 'o' 'a' 'j' n' 'int' 'it' 'as' etc rather than using terms like noun, adverb, passive, participle, infinitive, present tense etc.
4. make full use of puzzles, games, pictures.
It would be quite nice to be able to include jpg's in the material. These, of course, could be created by non-esperantists. One would just have to decide what one wanted illustrated, to give the necessary specifications. Or, perhaps, non-copyright stock material could be lifted.
Alternatively, perhaps suggestions could be made for stick drawings that any would-be teacher could draw on the whiteboard/blackboard. Even I could draw a calendar page to teach the difference between hieraŭ, hodiaŭ and morgaŭ and then the difference between estis estas and estos.
By combining everybody's best ideas, surely one could quite quickly come up with something stimulating and entertaining.
The material wouldn't have to be laid out in traditional coursebook form. A whole lesson could be condensed into a few paragraphs of instructions to the teacher.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12573 is a reply to message #12567 ] |
Sat, 24 April 2010 13:39 |
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To be fair to EAB's postal course, I used it when I was a beginner and I didn't think it was *that* bad. Certainly some of the vocab and examples are a little old-fashioned, but if you look at the 12 lessons as a whole I think they teach you as much as it is possible to teach in such a brief course - it's only supposed to be a taster at the end of the day. UEA certainly think highly of the EAB course and have specified that it be the material I use when teaching Esperanto to Africans by post/email
I'm sure that you are all right and it would be possible to produce a much more up-to-date course with better examples etc but as a ManCom member I would have two objections to any such proposal:
a) Who are we going to find to do it?
b) What's the point?
To start with a), I think the main thing which the Esperanto movement in general and EAB in particular are lacking at the moment is not good ideas for how to promote Esperanto, but people with both the time and expertise to put any of them into practice 
We do have a small team of two people who deal with educational publications, but they already have an enormous list of publications which they are hoping to produce or renew, and the postal course doesn't feature on it. They've recently brought out the new Esperanto mini-course (http://www.esperanto-gb.org/eab/bookshop/espmincou.jpg) which from what I've seen of it looks very professional. There is also a mini-dictionary in the same range (although I'm not sure whether this is on general sale yet) and a mini-grammar which I think will be coming out in the near future. As far as I understand it, there's talk of producing a mini-phrasebook in the same range, and I assume the intention of that is indeed to include some more modern vocab
As far as teaching courses goes etc, I think that going forward the intention is to recommend the mini-course rather than the postal course for this purpose.
As far as b) goes, I think that in 10 years time there will probably be no demand for a postal course at all. Most people 'young' enough to have a computer are now capable of finding far better resources at lernu.net and I imagine that the market for a postal course is now only really those who haven't taken the plunge and got online yet. I'm not at all convinced that it would be worth EAB investing the time/money in producing even an online course, when Lernu already has such a comprehensive offering on their website 
In terms of general publicity, the post of EAB publicity coordinator is currently vacant so if anyone feels they have something concrete they could contribute in the long term, make yourselves known
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12600 is a reply to message #12573 ] |
Mon, 26 April 2010 16:24 |
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Noktema Strigulino
Messages: 296
Registered: September 2009
Location: Bazildono |
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After some mulling, I think the main pleasure I get out of Esperanto is the feeling of actually having nailed a language other than my own, to the point of confidently being able to converse in it.
| Radio~! wrote on Sat, 24 April 2010 13:39 |
As far as teaching courses goes etc, I think that going forward the intention is to recommend the mini-course rather than the postal course for this purpose.
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I confess I know little about the Mini-Course. I should perhaps get hold of a copy and have a look at it.
| Radio~! wrote on Sat, 24 April 2010 13:39 |
In terms of general publicity, the post of EAB publicity coordinator is currently vacant so if anyone feels they have something concrete they could contribute in the long term, make yourselves known
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Scary stuff. I'm sure you're all fully aware by now that I love to stick my head over the parapet. What does it involve? I'd like to think that I might be able to bring a bit of razzmatazz to it. I must say, however, that the amount of times I spot Esperanto mentioned in the BBC website is heartening. Whoever is doing the PR now isn't doing too shabby a job.
Being able to type very fast might be a plus.
The Strig
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It is better to light a candle, than curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt.
Estas pli bone ekbruligi kandelon, ol malbeni la tenebron.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12607 is a reply to message #12600 ] |
Tue, 27 April 2010 09:21 |
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| Quote: | I confess I know little about the Mini-Course. I should perhaps get hold of a copy and have a look at it.
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It's pretty cheap so it won't break the bank You might even be able to pick up a copy in Llandudno, I'm not sure. We certainly managed to sell quite a few of them at the Language Show last autumn.
Re publicity, we're looking for all sorts of people really because there isn't a coordinated publicity effort at the moment. Anything which is being done (eg. articles on the BBC like the JEB one about Cardiff) is being organised by Brian Barker from Esperanto Lobby (outside of EAB). Thanks to his hard work there does appear to have been a lot of success recently, but EAB can't take credit for it.
What EAB really needs is a team of people who are prepared to put time into publicity. Tim has been approached to take over the graphics side of things, so hopefully at some point we will start to see more modern-looking leaflets, and if these are a success then it may one day lead to a makeover of the website. Geoffrey Greatrex, the trustee in charge of publicity, has been looking at translating into English various Esperanto-language publicity leaflets which have been produced by other organisations, but this seems to be a lot of work and so far we haven't really seen any results for it. Individuals send out press releases for local events etc, but probably this needs coordinating better so that one person can build up a network of contacts and experience at drafting the right sort of text.
The trustees are meeting for a working weekend in June and will hopefully have a clearer idea of what strategy should be going forward thereafter. Geoffrey lives in Canada but is going to be in the UK for the meeting so we should be able to make some proper progress. There's been vague talk of forming some sort of publicity sub-committee, so I can let you know in June what's happening with that and see whether it's something you'd like to be involved in
It will be interesting to see whether any members have actually read the financial statements which were sent to them with Update and raise any queries about publicity during the AGM.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12645 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Thu, 29 April 2010 16:35 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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Have there been many adverts in papers or magazines about Esperanto? Do they even work?
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12795 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Sat, 08 May 2010 17:53 |
Ramsgatano
Messages: 301
Registered: November 2009
Location: Ramsgate,Kent |
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Thinking about sallying forth shortly to Wales for the British congress, it suddenly occurred to me that one of the propaganda mistakes that is commonly made, is the support that is given to the idea that Esperanto would help to protect the existence of minority languages.
I think our position should be, forget about Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Gaelic, whatever, you would be better off learning Esperanto.
I don't know how much money is being spent on the promotion of Welsh, but I bet it runs into the millions. By all means, let the Welsh speak Welsh if they want to but why should public money be spent on promoting it. What advantage is it to a Welsh child to be taught in Welsh?
Imagine the cost of training teachers and producing textbooks.
How much does Welsh Television cost? What's the point of all those bi-lingual roadsigns, which can't have come cheap?
It would cost a fraction of all this to introduce Esperanto into the Schools. More of the educational benefit that comes from learning a second language would be realised, and money would be saved.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12796 is a reply to message #12795 ] |
Sat, 08 May 2010 22:01 |
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| Ramsgatano wrote on Sat, 08 May 2010 17:53 |
and money would be saved.
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You could also save money by not doing lots of things that aren't exactly necessary, so I'm not sure that that's an argument.
For example, you could save money by not publicly funding museums and libraries. Most people would argue that "saving money" is a poor argument in that case.
A lot of people are quite attached to preserving their historic language, and consigning it to history to save money equates to cutting funding for libraries in their minds.
I'm not a particularly fervent person in this regard. Indeed, my own blog was spammed by a horde of angry Esperantists once when I happened to mention that the death of a language didn't really bother me. (Worth a read if you've got a bit of time and want to see what happens when someone pulls the Esperanto-alarm.) But I fully understand that Welsh is something important to people in this island (including, in principle, people who have nothing to do with it).
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I think our position should be, forget about Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Gaelic, whatever, you would be better off learning Esperanto.
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Trying to put across to people that they should ditch Welsh for Esperanto strikes me as bad. I admit that Esperanto would provide better insight into language and facilitate the learning of others more than Welsh would, but it doesn't change the fact that it's important to people and that many people aren't bothered anyway about learning other languages.
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| Re: Kiel propagandi/argumenti por Esperanto. [message #12797 is a reply to message #11783 ] |
Sat, 08 May 2010 22:42 |
Jake
Messages: 139
Registered: June 2009
Location: Ashford en Kent / Durham ... |
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Don't you think though that most people couldn't care less about languages and that could be why none of the arguments work very well?
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